Welcome

Dear Readers:

Thank you so much for all of your comments. We are reading them with great interest and I'm only sorry we can't respond to them all. The issues many of you raised--including the problems kids bring to school and the fact that many have fallen behind well before high school--are crucial to any examination of the issue. The third part of the series will be posted on the website on Thursday evening and will appear in Friday's paper. The fourth, and final, part will be posted Friday evening and will appear in Saturday's paper. We look forward to hearing more of your thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks very much,

Beth Shuster

K-12 Education Editor, Los Angeles Times. 

Comments

[ARLENE DA SILVA]

I AM GRATEFUL TO SEE SUCH A SERIOUS ISSUE BEING BROUGHT TO FOCUS ,WE ALL NEED TO ADDRESS THIS "EDUCATION TRAGEDY". I AM A MOTHER OF THREE, TWO OF MY CHILDREN ATTENDING BIRMINGHAM HIGH SCHOOL, I AS WELL ATTENDED B.H.S. THE ONE MEMORY THAT COMES TO MIND FROM ATTENDING B.H.S. WAS THE DAY A TEACHER IN MY CLASS ANNOUNCED THAT HE WAS THERE TO TEACH US WHAT WAS EXPECTED AND WETHER WE WENT OUT AND JUMPED OFF A CLIFF WAS OF NO CONCERN TO HIM. THIS LEFT A TERRIBLE WOUND IN MY HEART AND WHEN MY TWO TEENAGE KIDS SHARE WITH ME THEIR DISSAPOINTMENT AND FEELINGS O NOT BEING ABLE TO CONNECT WITH THEIR TEACHERS IT IS ALL TO REAL. I AM VERY ENVOLVED IN MY KIDS EDUCATION, BUT I HAVE SEEN THAT NOT MANY PARENTS ARE. I AM NOT DECLARING THAT THE PROBLEM IS BECAUSE OF THE TEACHERS NOR JUST THE PARENTS,BUT WE ALL NEED TO COME TO THE TABLE SPECIALLY THE ALOOF ADMINISTRATION AND COME TO SOME BETTER SOLUTIONS FOR OUR CHILDREN. AFTERALL, WE ARE THE ONES WHO PROVIDE THE NECESSARY AND VITAL PREPARATION THAT THEY WILL NEED IN THE FUTURE, WE CANNOT GIVE UP ON OUR YOUTH.

[Patricia Erbele]

I am writing in response to the article you ran on February 4, 2006, The Vanishing Class: Failing Students Spell Profit for Some Schools. I am a teacher at Options For Youth. I teach here by choice. I am grateful to serve under the California charter to help enable students to succeed that might not otherwise do so in the traditional California school system. The article raises several issues I wish to address, including funding and graduation rates.
Yes, Options For Youth and Opportunities For Learning are publicly funded, as are all the other public schools in the state of California, accredited or not. We do happen to be accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. We operate under a charter bill introduced in 1994. The original charter bill gave great latitude to charter schools to merely demonstrate progress of the students in the California curriculum. Since the bill was introduced, the state of California has implemented many rules and regulations in conjunction with that bill, with which we fully comply to align ourselves more closely with the traditional public schools. The funding we receive is legitimate.
Not all of my students are “at risk,” however; many who are have been failed by the traditional school. Luis Huerta says of us, “While their intents are noble, this is still an operation that is funded by tax payers.” The very same thing can be said of the traditional schools from whence many of these students dropped out!
In spite of this, we encourage students to return to the traditional high school if their desire is to graduate with their former classmates. We are just beginning to track students who leave to do so. Rubin and Cleeland site only 11% of our students who leave go on to get a diploma. While the statistic is debatable and does not take into account those who do graduate with our program, 11% is a far greater percentage than if they had not had an alternative to turn to at all. Most of that 11% would not have received diplomas at all. The article says nothing about those who – as they intended from the time of their enrollment – transfer back to their high schools of origin. Many come here to catch up on credits for which they were behind so they can complete the graduation requirements at the traditional high schools they came from. The information in your article is skewed to look as if we start with the same student base as a traditional school and only graduate 11%. That is simply not the case.
Nor is it the case that we have no teachers or texts as O’Connell suggests. Our texts and curriculum and teachers can all be found within walls, within buildings. Incidentally, we have a good selection of math tutors behind those walls where we also hold small group classes for algebra and reading.
As stated, I am one of those teachers currently employed with Options For Youth and enjoy sharing the challenges of education with my students. I am puzzled by the comment, “enthusiastic but inexperienced??” Are there no first year teachers at the traditional schools? Not only am I a teacher, I am also a mother of three. Two of my own children sailed through traditional schools. My middle child did not. He was without doubt at risk for not finishing high school. Instead, he attended a charter school (from which he graduated). At 22 years old, he holds bachelor’s degrees in both math and physics from CSUSB and is currently working on his masters so he can teach math at the university level. He is one of the “small percentages” charter schools succeeded for and it is infinitely worthwhile!
The alternative education system charter schools offer is not for everyone. The traditional public schools service the majority of California High School students. However, for those who would otherwise drop out, this alternative is not something that should be glibly shot down with biased data such as was reported in your newspaper.
Sincerely;
Patricia Erbele, Teacher
Victorville

[Vanessa Martinez]

To add to my previous comment, the printed article fails to mention that my student and I figured out her algebra problem within moments, she was able to continue her work while I helped other students, and she passed her test that week. It fails to mention that we have a credentialed math teacher at our school center, which a Times reporter and photographer observed working with my student. All of our students working on Algebra get a chance to work with the math teacher in small groups of no more than six. She is also available to all of our students on alternating Fridays. I guess a report about this help we offer to our students wouldn't have fit into your article's main agenda.

[Ruth]

As an alternative education teacher, I teach the students who are behind in credits and on the verge of dropping out. I hear the same story over and over from students that counselors were not very involved when students didn't show up to school or when they were failing over fifty percent of their classes. Yes, Algebra is a problem for many, however, school districts need to have counselors "be counselors". With most districts averaging a 500 to 1 student to counselor ratio and a 181 average school year, how are counselor going to even meet with each individual student? much less follow up on those that are experiencing diffulties at school, home or personally. If counselors ratios were reduced to at least 200 to 1 counselor could be more proactive versus reactive to students academic problems. Telling students their Junior or Senior year that they may not graduate because they are short of credits it too late and does nothing for them except give them an excuse to drop out completely. Today's students have so many more issues that a fulltime counselor is needed to provide support so students can actually focus on their academics instead of trying to figure out how they will deal with being bullied, or parents alcohol problem, or gang threats or just fitting in etc. In addition, I agree that Math as well as English are the two most important core subjects and teachers who teach these subjects should get additonal pay. If Math and English teachers do their jobs right, then all other teachers in other subjects will benefit by having students who can read, write and figure out simple calculations in other subjects.

[a Mulholland Student]

I learned that dropping out of High School can be a very bad thing. If you drop out of High School you can’t get into a good college, you can’t get a good job, and also you won’t be bright as you’re supposed to. I also learned that the only thing that can make you drop out is you. I also learned that the wrong things you do make you drop out. If you smoke, join a gang, steal, cheat, and etc. If you never give up and keep trying you will a good life. You will be successful and you will live a happy life. I guarantee that you will live a good life and never give up. If I was one of those drop outs I would try to do something about it. I would still try and get a good education. That’s why I would never drop out and just give up. That’s why so far I am doing good because I try and never give up and I’m just in middle school.

Stephanie

[Tim T.]

1) School is now for girls. The authors of this series fail to address the most obvious crisis in schools. Public school fails boys. The unspoken roots of this failure are the holy "gender neutral" policies of the last thirty years.

Boys and girls (on average) are different. Boys and girls learn differently. Eighty percent of dropouts, suspensions, expulsions, those diagnosed ADHD and learning problems, and kids in resource classes are boys.

The shortened school days have cheated kids out of time for supervised physical activity and much needed play at recess, lunch, and PE. Developmentally inappropriate tasks are constantly imposed on boys in the early grades.

2) Now, making matters worse, are politicized 'standards-based' testing and grading. These have morphed into chronic critical and whining accusations that kids, their teachers, and their schools are not good enough. Standards based education and grading provides excuses to eliminate those marginalized and struggling. They allow us to create a new generation of education failures.

The normal, reasonable, and weary response in children becomes "Why try?" Most boys in high school believe school offers no opportunity for them. A million new science and math teachers are not enough to address the dehumanizing process we are now allowing to be imposed on our schools, teachers, and children.

[Raymond Macon, Boulder, Colorado]

I have read this series, and Part 2 in particular, with deep interest. I was a math teacher in the St. Vrain School District in Colorado during the 2003/2004 school year. I was cedentialed as an "alternative license" teacher in the state of Colorado qualified to teach math at the secondary school level. I had earned my degree in mathematics from the University of Colorado in May 2002.

I lasted all of one year. In short, the inmates were running the asylum. No discipline, no desire to learn, and no consequences for bad decisions students made were only some of the reasons I left teaching with no intention of returning. The two major ones were lack of support from school administrators and parents. Most parents took little or no interest in their child's education. School administrators always undercut my authority in the classroom.

I took an "old school" approach to teaching math: drills, homework, and class assignments that challenged a student to think. I taught geometry, pre-algebra, and remedial math. In all three courses I would have to say that the majority of my students were unprepared to do the required work. Many could not do simple multiplication. Some were still counting on their fingers. And most shockingly of all, none had any exposure to concepts that should have been taught in elementary and middle school.

Absenteeism, ditching, behavioral problems, and racial tensions were the "extracurricular" problems I had to solve in addition to finding an effective way to sound down the material into my students' minds. Yet despite these great handicaps, I managed to get through to some of my students. My efforts were completely unappreciated by the school administration. The principal told me that I was a "brilliant" man who would make an "outstanding" teacher, but she nevertheless refused to renew my contract. My approach to teaching didn't resonate with the current fad of "standards-based education", and so I was not asked back. After I saw that her attitude was commonplace in the district, I decided to leave teaching and never return.

President Bush wants to bring more scientists and mathematicians into the nation's classrooms in the belief this will improve math education. Well, that is a good start, but only a start. When these professionals realize that discipline is absent from today's schools, and that they will get no support from school administrators and even fellow teachers (I was fortunate to have the full support of my school's math department), they will leave the profession as quickly as I did.

Those of us who have earned degrees in math and science--as opposed to being merely "certified" to teach these subjects--know what it takes to achieve success in these fields. Our input is neither welcomed nor wanted in public education today. It is no wonder to me that math and science education in America is so bad, and that will continue to be the case for as long as cosmetic solutions are proposed to this great problem.

[c.gonzales]

Great series, have enjoyed each installment! If Mr. Hall thinks that 1 student out of 10 graduating from his program is a worthy benchmark one can only conclude the only metric Hall and his contemporaries are truly interested in is the number of students that enter their program---Hall's indefensible position that you cannot save many students underlines and illuminates just how misdirected and sadly ineffective his "student mill" is. All one needs now is for George Bush to exclaim ""Way to go, Hallie!" to make the nightmare complete. Demand benchmarks or award the educational contracts to someone who really was an educator not an opportunist afforded an opportunity by well placed friends.

[Kevin]

Steve Wilmer: Bravo! You hit the nail on the head. Success in school, or anything else for that matter, requires discipline. And discipline has to be taught by parents before a child begins school. Teachers can’t do this job for parents.

When I was a kid, I didn't dare ditch class. I mostly attended Catholic schools, and had I been caught outside my assigned classroom, that would have meant a visit with the Mother Superior. All the nuns were mean (so we thought), but the M.S. was the meanest of them all. M.S. also taught class, so when a student was brought to her attention, she would stop her class, pull out the leather strap, and whip the offending student's butt in front of all her students. Then, a call would be placed to the student's parents, and another whipping would be waiting at home. Needless to say, there was a lot of incentive not to be hauled before the Mother Superior. My friends who attended public school had similar experiences with their principal.

When I was a kid (in the early 60s, BTW), I don't recall too many grade-school children acting out in public. Forget "time outs"...if I acted out, I'd immediately get my face slapped. And not just a little wimpy slap, but one that would make my glasses fly off my face. Today, it's hard to walk in a grocery store without seeing unruly children screaming, running unsupervised down the aisles, pulling stuff off the shelves, etc. Once I saw a boy, perhaps ten years of age, pull down his pants and relieve himself right in the middle of a parking lot...WHILE HIS MOTHER WATCHED AND WAITED FOR HIM TO FINISH!! I don’t often stare slack-jawed at someone, but I sure did that day. Had I even THOUGHT of doing such a thing, I wouldn't have been able to sit down for a week. I would also have been grounded, and had all my favorite toys taken away from me, probably for good.

I'm sure that the vast majority of parents today would be horrified at the thought of corporal punishment, as I’ve described above, being used on their kids. But there's a lot to say for corporal punishment and public humiliation. It may sound draconian, but it worked. I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but if I were the parent of that kid shown sleeping on his desk, I'd whip his butt so hard that he'd have to stand up in class...which would solve the problem of falling asleep at his desk, wouldn't it?

Another important part of my upbringing was that my parents insisted upon knowing what homework was assigned to me, and making sure that I did it correctly. I’m an only child, and my parents owned a little mom-and-pop store in Long Beach. They both worked long hours, so I was on my own a lot. They bought a desk for me and put it in the back room of the store. After school, I was expected to go to that desk immediately, do my homework, and show it to my mom or dad. Only after it was checked and deemed acceptable was I allowed to go out and play. My parents didn't have a lot of education themselves, but they made time to read my textbooks with me so that they were sure I was doing my work correctly. They also helped me with rote-memory drills. My folks worked 14 hour days, seven days a week, and still did this for me. When playtime was over, I was expected to go home – alone – and prepare dinner for my parents and myself. I was maybe 10 years old when I was first given this chore. Would you let your ten-year-old child do this today? Probably not, and likely because they’re not responsible enough to do it. Oh, and it would probably be considered child abuse today, as would corporal punishment.

My point is that parents can instill discipline in their kids if they deem it important. It was unusual for both parents to work in the 1960s, but my folks made time for me regardless of how tired they were. And I think I turned out pretty well.

[Jason M.]

Brandon,
You are probably doing the better thing by getting your credential first and then going to teach. Only because it is hell to do both at the same time. This is my second year teaching math. You will probably have 35-40 students in your classroom. And most likely you'll have at least two different classes to teach. After a couple weeks into your first year, the work will start to catch up with you. You'll be taking teaching on a day by day basis. You'll be in survival mode. I want to be very creative in my instruction, but I don't have the time to properly plan it. It takes all I have now just to stay caught up with the pace of my classes. I often work weekdays at home til 2-3 am. I don't have much of my own social life. So far, teaching has consumed 85% of all my time. I like teaching, but it is extremely demanding. I can't think of a worse day, than having one 'unplanned' day.
So far, what I have observed, is that you can do all the differentiated instruction you want. But if a student doesn't want to learn, he/she isn't going to, period. And that's the frustrating part. The hardest days I have are when I come home and feel like all the work I did and effort I put into my instruction wasn't absorbed. When you have classes where the students aren't academically minded, you feel defeated, frustrated, angry, and depressed. And you have to deal with that for 180 days. This year, luckily, the majority of classes that I teach have more interested students in them. So I feel like what help I have to offer is being received. And that feels good. I'll walk to the moon and back for any student that honestly tries. But I have little patience for those that don't. Good luck.

[Steve Wimer]

I commend the L.A. Times coverage of the problems facing high school education. I have some views on this subject. My father, mother, sister, and I all taught school. Social promotion needs to end! The curriculum needs to include remedial classes for kids without the skills to tackle Algebra. Kids that ditch classes must face severe consequences, failure. Discipline problems must be addressed. I also noticed many of the teachers writing comments made spelling and syntax errors. This brings to mind another point. If the bottom rung of college students go into teaching, you can expect poor students to produce more poor students. The poor pay, working conditions, and stress of teaching in today's schools is not attracting the best candidates! Your paper has done an excellent job of reporting this story.

[RJ]

I teach in a drop-out "recovery" program for LAUSD and get many of the students profiled in the article. Few of the students coming to us have even the skills necessary for middle school. Those who read at fourth grade level (and as low as less than first grade) don't have the patience to work through remediation reading. Same in regards to math skills. Many of those who actually have all their algebra credits lack the ability to do even simple arithmetic on our tests. And algebra credits will not help students pass the GED exam which is used in our program for quick credits.

The majority of students I have only want to know how soon they can "get" their diplomas and don't want to do the work. Most feel that they should be exempt from doing the assignments or attending regularly, or that they can hold down 30-40 hour week jobs in addition. Or they decide to have babies at age 16 -- with the blessing of their families even. Many students who come to us have already been to several other continuation programs. I'd estimate our dropout rate to be about 98%.

I wonder, though, just how much the taxpayer should be responsible for all these costs. If a student doesn't put forth the effort, I think the taxpayer's responsibility should end and transfer over to the parents. After all, the primary causes of dropout students that I've seen are truancy and irresponsible parents. Public education should be a two-way contract. The current set-up fosters an entitlement feeling, not one of "earning" the paid-for schooling. I applaud those districts which have begun to bill parents of truant students for lost seat time. Most of these families have relied on the schools to do what should have been their jobs and have never maintained any supervision at home.

When I was in school, failing students had to stay after class everyday for extra tutoring. If that didn't work, there was summer school, and then repeating the grade over. Rather than having one watered down high school exit exam, why aren't there several exit exams for previous grades? What about entrance exams for high school? And yes, I'd support a dual-track education system and vouchers.

[brandon dorman]

Thank you to the reporters who are doing this investigation piece. I am a math teacher candidate at Fresno Pacific University (in the Credentialing program as we speak) and am reading this series with great interest.

I agree and likewise disagree with many of the comments made in the article and on this discussion board. I really think the thing that we need (and are heading toward!) is allowing the freedom in the classroom of all teachers to teach their students. Standards are GOOD as long as they don't rush the teachers into putting out material too fast - the inch deep mile wide approach, etc. On the contrary, why not reach ABOVE the stated standards and encompass multiple modalities of teaching into instruction? For example, one can introduce geometric methods of factoring to help kinesthetic and visual learners, while reinforcing the content standards for those whom regular numbers suit just fine ( http://mathforum.org/alejandre/algfac.html ). More teacher education is not the answer, but passionate teachers are. I'm not gonna say what we "need" because I'm not in the classroom yet, only as a substitute teacher, etc. But at least here in teacher Ed., we are being taught to do our dardndest to reach all kids in as many ways as we can. Yes, students need to do homework, and need to CARE - we can't make them do that, but we can model it. It's a societal issue, but it can be challenged by teachers.

[Paul Robinson]

It must be recognized that there are many outstanding teachers in the LAUSD, and there are definately many who are not.

If a Pediatrician had 50% of their otherwise healthy patients die there would be a criminal investigation. Allowing 50% of our students to drop out or fail should also warrant a criminal investigation.

[D J - teacher]

As a history teacher, I do not envy math teachers.
I believe that a major aspect of the problem kids are having in math lies in the approach to the curriculum. Other countries, such as Germany and Japan, "outperform" our students in standardized testing, which incidentally, very few educators I've encountered support. They teach math in a much more basic way, and build skills more efficiently so that students are ready to take on the challenge of Algebra.
It is the cliche "inch deep and mile wide" way in which we teach the subject. Understanding of math requires complex critical thinking and conceptualizing. Students in the middle schools are being taught Algebra in 7th and 8th grade, at an age where, physiologically, most are not yet capable of such higher level thinking skills.
Aside, few things are more aggrevating than the "blame the kids" teacher comments. Get out of the classroom, if you believe that!

[Veteran Math Teacher]

You cannot teach Algebra to anybody that does not have the fundamentals.

To qoute Jamie Escalante: if "...a kid knows fractions, knows arithmetic, I guarantee this kid’s going to have success in algebra."
(edweek.org 1/06)

Our kids come to class undisciplined, uninterested, and unprepared. Most of the failing students are just not good students. They do not study, they cannot sit and listen to lecture or explanations, most are just not ready right now to be successful. At some point in their life they will find the need and desire to abotain an education. This is not to say that we could use better trainied teachers, or teachers that are willing to put in the time to prepare interestign lessons or time to help struggling students. That is a given. But even teachers who go above and beyond hit the wall of apathy.

We are trying to tackle a situation that goes back to pre-school.

[Nancy T]

Alexis De Tocqueville warned how mass culture (Americans) tends to follow a path declining steadily toward lowest-common-denominator standards. Rather than set high standards of achievement the writers of this article, as well as the LAUSD, prefer to lower the bar so everyone feels good about themselves. Thank goodness for promoting high self-esteem over mathematic basics and competence. It is no wonder America ranks so poorly among industrial nations.

[Sarrah Terry]

Teaching beginning algebra requires common sense explanations directed to the student's level of understanding. Even experienced certified math teachers have a hard time with that.

Therefore, it seems to me that the LAUSD cannot legally justify giving a failing grade to any student who fails a math class taught by one of the 40% of teachers who are not certified to teach the subject.

District claims about the shortage of qualified math teachers are pretty thin; I suspect they pay less
to "the 40%" (a personnel target?) and redirect the budget savings.

That there is no transitional class between standard math and freshman algebra or remedial math classes supported by tutors demonstrates the sad state of our educational system.

[Jason M.]

Too many people have been pointing out spelling typos to undercut someone's point. So, yes, I did misspell speech (speach). And I apologize for any other typos I'll probably continue to make.

[Jason M.]

Gale,
I am a second year high school math teacher in San Bernardino. We had (past tense) up until this year a class called Algebra Standards. Basically, it expands Algebra from one year, to two years. It was formed to help accomodate those that are having problems with Algebra. It sounds good, BUT, there is a problem with it that I have personally noticed. To graduate from my high school, a student needs 3 years of math. Students figured out, that if they first fail Algebra, they can go into Alg. Stds. And after taking Algebra Standards for two years, receive 2 years of math credit vs. a hard working student who did it in one year and received only 1 year of credit. The same is happening with Geometry Standards. This year, Algebra Standards is gone, and soon Geometry Standards will be gone too.
On the Presidents State of the Union speach, I caught one of many glowing examples of ignorance. 50% of 9-12 students drop out of high school, and a very small percentage actually make it to an AP Math class. Why did the President propose hiring tens of thousands of AP Math teachers?!?! What?!?! You know, it's great that now women in Afghanistan can now vote, but now 50% of CA teenagers drop out of high school. The United States spends as much money in it's military as the rest of the world combined does in theirs! Just goes to show where Bush's priorities lie.

[Gale Naylor]

I hope someone will consider a hybrid approach: specifically, spread high school Algebra (for those that need extra help) over two or more years, like we do here with 7th and 8th graders in Pleasanton, CA. For those who are "counting on their fingers" and otherwise completely confused by math, perhaps have them take a semester of math continuously throughout high school, starting with basic math and culminating in Algebra. The goal is that they pass Algebra before they graduate; that is different than saying they need to pass it in 9th grade. The concepts we learn by succeeding at Algebra are deeper than just the ability to "solve for x" and I think if we eliminate the requirement we are going backwards. At the same time, repeatedly throwing kids into an Algebra class for which they are grossly underprepared is other than a good solution. We clearly need to do something different and soon.